clutch replacement question, How much and how long? Options

[paul_k]

My understanding is that Borg Warner design and make the twin clutches, triple cone sycronisers and some of the hydraulic control system.
The actual Gears and transaxle castings are designed and made by Nissan
GKN provide the electromagnetic 4 wd torque distribution and LSD.

As a ex gearbox designer the failures seen so far appear to be strength not wear related, and quite suprising to me that the larger of the gear set has failed as it is the smaller gear that is normally designed with higher strength materials. Wonder if Nissan just need to use higher strength materials or hardening on the larger first gear.

It is a major failure in design that the gearbox fails before a half shaft or stub axle connection. It is pretty simple to design in a torque limiting device which would have the added advantage (at least for Nissan) of stopping abuse from the increased torque of tuning.

I have heard from a reliable source that the clutch pack was designed for 140,000 miles of normal use. Its not clear what the definition of normal use for this car is though...

This post has been edited by paul_k: Oct 8 2008, 04:27 AM

[celsius]

Great info Paul! Thank you!!

My understanding is that Borg Warner design and make the twin clutches, triple cone sycronisers and some of the hydraulic control system.
The actual Gears and transaxle castings are designed and made by Nissan
GKN provide the electromagnetic 4 wd torque distribution and LSD.

As a ex gearbox designer the failures seen so far appear to be strength not wear related, and quite suprising to me that the larger of the gear set has failed as it is the smaller gear that is normally designed with higher strength materials. Wonder if Nissan just need to use higher strength materials or hardening on the larger first gear.

It is a major failure in design that the gearbox fails before a half shaft or stub axle connection. It is pretty simple to design in a torque limiting device which would have the added advantage (at least for Nissan) of stopping abuse from the increased torque of tuning.

I have heard from a reliable source that the clutch pack was designed for 140,000 miles of normal use. Its not clear what the definition of normal use for this car is though...

[jus10]

[PHoliday]

Celsius, noone is questioning whether or not the tranny is covered under the powertrain warranty. I am only questioning whether the clutch pack is covered (which most cars clutches are not). Since you might have to replace both with a failure, this would be an issue. The issue, is that you might have to replace a perfectly good tranny when your clutch goes, and if it happens before 60/60000, then you will have to foot the bill for 18,000 dollars.

I also understand that there will be aftermarket stuff. I am perfectly happy with the cars gearbox performance, and I don't care to buy an aftermarket clutch pack, with no warranty. What I want to know (and am getting the answer to), is whether or not I am warrantied for all failures up to the end of my powertrain warranty, including failures to the clutch pack (which again, is usually a wear and tear item).

The piece of mind of a 60,000 mile powertrain warranty means a lot to me, since I love this car the way it is, and I don't want to get stuck with a 18k bill if something fails in the clutch pack. I want to be able to drive this car like it's meant to be driven, until the end of the warrantied life. Then, if there are few known problems, I will hold on to the car. If there are many, many problems arising, I will sell it and get something else fun to drive. I will not, however, own a car that can have a clutch pack failure (potentially), and leave me replacing parts that should be covered under the powertrain warranty.

This post has been edited by PHoliday: Oct 8 2008, 07:46 AM

[PHoliday]

I also understand 140k miles may be the normal use for the clutch, but I need more than that. The powertrain is supposed to last more than 60k miles, but that doesn't mean I don't care about my warranty. I still need to know, that if I get a bad part, and it fails early, that I am covered.

[davidm_sh]

Thanks a lot for the information PHoliday and paul_k!

[MindlessOath]

The GR6 wasnt built with money in mind. if it was it would be better. i cant find the article, but they had a budget for it, and it could have been much better, but this is what worked for them.

if they didnt have a budget the Car itself would be in the 100k zone or more.

and yes the clutchs are good for alot of miles. the life of the trans basically. for normal driving (tho what is normal driving for this car?). in any case adding more power is not included in that situation and that will cause the need for new clutchs sooner. thats all i can think of.

tho i havent heard but one report come in talking about clutchs... and i dont even know if the dealer was just guessing or not.

This post has been edited by MindlessOath: Oct 8 2008, 11:59 AM

[efranzen]

If the clutch lasts 140,000 miles and the transmission costs $19,000 that works out to $170 per month in maintenance costs if you drive the federal average yearly mileage.

[paul_k]

I think Nissan need time to sort out the maintenance of the transaxle in relation to real world costs.

I'm pretty sure the clutches will be treated as a servicable item without changing the whole transaxle even though they should last for the life of the car.

This post has been edited by paul_k: Oct 8 2008, 02:58 PM

[tyndago]

I see the policy on this transmission changing over time. There are precedents within Nissans prior lineup to go either way with the transmission.

They may make it a serviceable part. They may have "rebuilt" parts in stock. They might let the dealer replace only one part.

The R34 Getrag V160 was only replaceable as an assembly from Nissan. The box is almost the same as the V160 that was in the Toyota Supra. Eventually you could buy the Getrag parts from Toyota to rebuild the Getrag. Everyone says the Getrag is bulletproof, but we broke a lot of them in GT-R's.

[tekknikal]

^so for the R34 GTR, nissan never sold transmission parts? i assume that excludes the clutch though..

[lindros2]

I am going to be calling Nissan and resolving this. I am in the same boat, everything else I have been able to take. This, is really pushing my limits. I can deal with expensive maintenance, that's what you pay to play. I have no problem with the money, and I hold some pretty recession proof investments at this point, so I don't think the money will ever become an issue.

Good luck calling Nissan North America and getting ANYTHING - and I mean ANYTHING - resolved.

They are a bunch of useless menial, low-rent, shitbags with barely-understandable foreign accents. The only thing they can do is "email questions to others at Nissan."

[MindlessOath]

sorry lindros2, your talking to the wrong people.

[PHoliday]

Good luck calling Nissan North America and getting ANYTHING - and I mean ANYTHING - resolved.

They are a bunch of useless menial, low-rent, shitbags with barely-understandable foreign accents. The only thing they can do is "email questions to others at Nissan."

I've actually gotten quite a bit of help so far, and all from people who speak fluent English and are very articulate.

I'll let everyone know when I get more information, but based on my daily update calls from Nissan, I believe that they are working the problem and information is coming.

[stealershiptech]

As of now most trans repairs we do are replacement not repairs,this will also apply to the gtr. One thing to keep in mind is that the clutch pack on the gtr is no way like you typical clutch it is like an auto trans clutch pack, this means if you have a clutch fail and the clutches come apart they will
contaminate the fluid, this is the same fluid that lubricates all the other rotating assemblies inside your trans gears, bearings, etc. I think so many parts would be needed beyond the clutch packs for rebuild that when you add labor it would be cheaper to replace the trans, labor for a rebuild is considerably higher than remove and replacement of trans.

[tyndago]

^so for the R34 GTR, nissan never sold transmission parts? i assume that excludes the clutch though..

No transmission parts. The transfercase is available as a separate piece. The clutch is a separate piece. The actual transmission itself is only available as an assembly.

http://tyndago.googlepages.com/gt-rtransmissions

[tyndago]

As of now most trans repairs we do are replacement not repairs,this will also apply to the gtr. One thing to keep in mind is that the clutch pack on the gtr is no way like you typical clutch it is like an auto trans clutch pack, this means if you have a clutch fail and the clutches come apart they will

I think transmission rebuild is above what I would call "normal dealer service level". The time and the procedures involved. Its cheaper and faster for the dealership to replace rather than rebuild. Pull out the bad, slam in the new one.

I have installed a transaxle in a GT-R, back in February. Its not really that complicated of a job. Drop the subframe, reinstall the subframe. Mostly you just need a good table to be able to support the subframe.

[dukestar]

I posed this issue of the clutch pack being warranteed or not to my GM...here is the response...note that in Canada we like kilometers...

I spoke to Nissan Canada today regarding the question of warranty on the clutches. The clutches are internal on the GT-R and as of now are not serviceable therefore they are covered as a major component along with the transmission ( 5 years/100'000km). The only thing that would change that is if it has been found that the damage was a result of abuse. So far I have not heard of any transmission failures that were not directly related to the use of launch control. As we all know the use of launch control would most certainly void the warranty on parts that would be affected by its use. Just one more thing to add, The clutches in the GT-R are a wet clutch. What this means is that the clutches are actually submersed in transmission oil and are similar to the clutch packs in an automatic transmission. Being that they are lubricated and cooled by the fluid it makes them allot less susceptible to wear. I hope this answers your questions and feel free to contact me if you have anymore.

[PHoliday]

I posed this issue of the clutch pack being warranteed or not to my GM...here is the response...note that in Canada we like kilometers...

I talked with my rep that I am dealing with, and indeed, the clutch pack is covered under the powertrain warranty. Thus, if your clutch fails, and they need to replace the transmission, you get a new transmission (and clutch pack) for free.

[davidm_sh]

More good information! And one good reason to consider purchasing the extended warranty?