Is Transmission Oil To Blame For Tranny Failure? Options

[RenatoGTR]

Is the trans oil contributing to the problems we have seen and is there something better?

[MindlessOath]

nissan recomends that customers use the spacific one and nothing else. is that due to a marketing relationship with the oil? i dunno.

either case, this is an abuse issue. NO OTHER TRANS WILL DIE UNLESS YOU ABUSE IT!

[ulysses]

This post has been edited by ulysses: Oct 29 2008, 01:08 PM

[Martin Donnon]

This is an interesting topic, and describes the thinking our company has been using since first purchasing a GTR (first road regsitered example in Australia).
What made us take note of the gearbox lubrication was the simple physics of the situation, with 10 litres of fluid needing a high pressure feed pump to keep the transmission correctly oiled. Then there is the requirement to change the fluid at 1800 miles with track use.....so we took our car to the track, saw an indicated 128 deg C on the transmission temperature, and put the car on the lift for service.

First up, Nissan are not joking when they ask you service the transmission oil in 1800 miles of hard use. The light green fluid that we sampled from the transmission had a distinct burnt smell (like burned auto transmission fluid) and had visible grey metallic infusion in its makeup. This is probably to be expected from a new transmission, but taking no chances we sent the sample off to a laboratory that specialises in oil analysis for a complete inspection. The first report was a conventional Spectrograph which showed that there could be a potential lack of lubrication in the transmission with 200 micron sized particles of gear material in the sample. This is nothing to get alarmed about, a T56 Tremec will do this in 1800 miles of city driving, but they also have the same problem - a lack of protective lubrication from the factory.

The next step was a chemical analysis of the transmission oil to find out 'what makes it tick'. This was a relatively drawn out process, but I can tell you that the R35 transmission oil is a specialist product, not an off the shelf D-Matic or Transmax ATF. A conventional ATF will in fact - from our knowledge of the chemistry - cause problems with the dual wet clutches. This is the 'key' to R35 transmission oil, keeping the clutches happy and healthy with a nice slick action, which is why Nissan have sacrificed lubricity and metal protection in the quest for the very best shift action and 'driver comfortable' clutch engagement.

Now the job was to build a better mousetrap...and this took a little while. Our major requirement of our own R35 Transmission fluid was to incorporate a Solid Boundary protectant in the lubricant which delivers a film on the face of the gears with extremely high shear resistance. In other words rather than allowing a percentage of metal/metal contact as acceptable, we did everything possible to keep every reciprocating part of the gearbox separated by an oil film. Of course all of this had to be carried out without affecting clutch engagement or shift action, and thats the trick, giving the lubricant the same viscosity index and additive packages for the clutches to give factory specification gearbox performance. This we have achieved.

Last but not least has been the ongoing testing phase. Another 1800 miles have been completed with our new lubricant in place, and so far we have some interesting yet expected test results. The initial feedback was one of markedly reduced transmission noise particularly in first and second gear where you normally hear some light whine. The solid boundary lubricant does this, it also reduced internal gearbox friction to the point where the shifts (particularly second gear - which needs it!) feel a little softer. Noteably less ratcheting and banging sounds come out of the transmission - put a 'Chassis Ear' on the gearbox and drive sometime you will be amazed at the mechanical symphony going on in there! Another benefit of using a Solid Boundary lubricant is that it gives a margin for shock absorbtion in the transmission....no guarantees it will make any LC gearbox problems go away, but using this kind of lubricant is accepted in industry as being a gear protectant in high shear conditions

The major gain, and the one that interests us the most has been the reduction of gearbox temperature which can be noticed with careful data gathering in a city cycle, but really stands out in competition use. Although the statistical spread is fairly wide an acceptable figure to report would be up to 15 deg C temperature drop in the transmission under the same conditions versus the factory oil. Where you could see 130 deg C, now you will get between 114 - 116 deg C. This drop in temperature comes about due to the loss of internal friction in the transmission rather than any kind of black magic.

Overall we are extremely happy with our R35 transmission lubricant, and will keep the forum posted with results

This post has been edited by Martin Donnon: Oct 29 2008, 12:38 PM

[bgnnh]

Do you also see power and MPG improvements with the new fluid?

[Martin Donnon]

Do you also see power and MPG improvements with the new fluid?

There are no doubt some small gains to be had in both departments with a reduction in internal friction, but whether they are measureable or not is another matter. Our main focus was always protection of the transmission internals....we liken the oil solution we have to putting a little coat of armour on the gears

[GTR35V]

Do you also see power and MPG improvements with the new fluid?

What fluid are you using? Can you let us in on the secret?
I like the lower temps!!! this will help in a lot of places.

THANKS!

[M!!]

very detail post Martin Donnon!

[Martin Donnon]

What fluid are you using? Can you let us in on the secret?
I like the lower temps!!! this will help in a lot of places.
THANKS!

There is no secret to the type of fluid we are using. Its a product - WR35TM - we had specifically blended for us via a specialist lubrication company. We really had no option to do this as Nissan simply wont supply their production R35 transmission oil to Australia. So rather than ID and replace the existing fluid we figured that testing the performance of the Nissan product and then bettering it would be the go. Its taken some time and some money to do this, so its no game of chance, rather a development process.

When it comes to oils I am one of the biggest sceptics there is, companies claiming this and that, power improvements etc. etc. Most of it is rubbish designed to sell Product A over Product B. Nissan knew exactly what they were doing when they joined forces with the oil company that make their R35 Transmission oil. They know it is extremely heat affected (hence the change intervals) and sacrifices pure lubrication quality in an all out attempt to make their gearbox as ratchet precise as possible as cheaply as possible. They have indeed succeeded in every aspect of their criteria. Production oil supply is very price driven with something like the R35 Transmission oil costing - really - no more than around $20/quart to replicate. Why do that though when for $60/quart we can make something last 8 -10 times longer (we are expecting to see coventional accepted 1800 mile wear at 18000 miles) and protect the metallurgy of the gearset against shock loading at the same time?

This post has been edited by Martin Donnon: Oct 29 2008, 01:50 PM

[rabenoja]

There is no secret to the type of fluid we are using. Its a product - WR35TM - we had specifically blended for us via a specialist lubrication company. We really had no option to do this as Nissan simply wont supply their production R35 transmission oil to Australia. So rather than ID and replace the existing fluid we figured that testing the performance of the Nissan product and then bettering it would be the go. Its taken some time and some money to do this, so its no game of chance, rather a development process.

When it comes to oils I am one of the biggest sceptics there is, companies claiming this and that, power improvements etc. etc. Most of it is rubbish designed to sell Product A over Product B. Nissan knew exactly what they were doing when they joined forces with the oil company that make their R35 Transmission oil. They know it is extremely heat affected (hence the change intervals) and sacrifices pure lubrication quality in an all out attempt to make their gearbox as ratchet precise as possible as cheaply as possible. They have indeed succeeded in every aspect of their criteria. Production oil supply is very price driven with something like the R35 Transmission oil costing - really - no more than around $20/quart to replicate. Why do that though when for $60/quart we can make something last 8 -10 times longer (we are expecting to see coventional accepted 1800 mile wear at 18000 miles) and protect the metallurgy of the gearset against shock loading at the same time?

Thanks for sharing your insights and findings. I like the fact that you will be saving wear on the tranny. At what intervals will you be changing out the fluids then and also where would we be able to purchase this product?

How long have you been running this oil and how many miles have you logged on it so far?

[clokwork]

What I want to know is if your blend will be available to us (the public). When I am out of warranty, I will be trying quite a few other options to strengthen the car. Bearings and now this seem like great options.

What scares me is that I don't track my car. I get on it occassionally, but the book says I wont need to change it until 14k miles I believe? Will it really last that long?


When I put the car up for the winter, how should I go about keeping the oils and lubricants up to par?

[Goodwood]

Very interesting and informative post, Martin! Thanks for doing all this research and sharing it with us. Will follow this with great interest.

[RenatoGTR]

Very interesting and informative post, Martin! Thanks for doing all this research and sharing it with us. Will follow this with great interest.

+1

[Lue]

nice post, let us commoners know when we can actually use it

[werewolf]

This is an interesting topic, and describes the thinking our company has been using since first purchasing a GTR (first road regsitered example in Australia).
What made us take note of the gearbox lubrication was the simple physics of the situation, with 10 litres of fluid needing a high pressure feed pump to keep the transmission correctly oiled. Then there is the requirement to change the fluid at 1800 miles with track use.....so we took our car to the track, saw an indicated 128 deg C on the transmission temperature, and put the car on the lift for service.

First up, Nissan are not joking when they ask you service the transmission oil in 1800 miles of hard use. The light green fluid that we sampled from the transmission had a distinct burnt smell (like burned auto transmission fluid) and had visible grey metallic infusion in its makeup. This is probably to be expected from a new transmission, but taking no chances we sent the sample off to a laboratory that specialises in oil analysis for a complete inspection. The first report was a conventional Spectrograph which showed that there could be a potential lack of lubrication in the transmission with 200 micron sized particles of gear material in the sample. This is nothing to get alarmed about, a T56 Tremec will do this in 1800 miles of city driving, but they also have the same problem - a lack of protective lubrication from the factory.

The next step was a chemical analysis of the transmission oil to find out 'what makes it tick'. This was a relatively drawn out process, but I can tell you that the R35 transmission oil is a specialist product, not an off the shelf D-Matic or Transmax ATF. A conventional ATF will in fact - from our knowledge of the chemistry - cause problems with the dual wet clutches. This is the 'key' to R35 transmission oil, keeping the clutches happy and healthy with a nice slick action, which is why Nissan have sacrificed lubricity and metal protection in the quest for the very best shift action and 'driver comfortable' clutch engagement.

Now the job was to build a better mousetrap...and this took a little while. Our major requirement of our own R35 Transmission fluid was to incorporate a Solid Boundary protectant in the lubricant which delivers a film on the face of the gears with extremely high shear resistance. In other words rather than allowing a percentage of metal/metal contact as acceptable, we did everything possible to keep every reciprocating part of the gearbox separated by an oil film. Of course all of this had to be carried out without affecting clutch engagement or shift action, and thats the trick, giving the lubricant the same viscosity index and additive packages for the clutches to give factory specification gearbox performance. This we have achieved.

Last but not least has been the ongoing testing phase. Another 1800 miles have been completed with our new lubricant in place, and so far we have some interesting yet expected test results. The initial feedback was one of markedly reduced transmission noise particularly in first and second gear where you normally hear some light whine. The solid boundary lubricant does this, it also reduced internal gearbox friction to the point where the shifts (particularly second gear - which needs it!) feel a little softer. Noteably less ratcheting and banging sounds come out of the transmission - put a 'Chassis Ear' on the gearbox and drive sometime you will be amazed at the mechanical symphony going on in there! Another benefit of using a Solid Boundary lubricant is that it gives a margin for shock absorbtion in the transmission....no guarantees it will make any LC gearbox problems go away, but using this kind of lubricant is accepted in industry as being a gear protectant in high shear conditions

The major gain, and the one that interests us the most has been the reduction of gearbox temperature which can be noticed with careful data gathering in a city cycle, but really stands out in competition use. Although the statistical spread is fairly wide an acceptable figure to report would be up to 15 deg C temperature drop in the transmission under the same conditions versus the factory oil. Where you could see 130 deg C, now you will get between 114 - 116 deg C. This drop in temperature comes about due to the loss of internal friction in the transmission rather than any kind of black magic.

Overall we are extremely happy with our R35 transmission lubricant, and will keep the forum posted with results

GREAT post!

[NickTO]

There is no secret to the type of fluid we are using. Its a product - WR35TM - we had specifically blended for us via a specialist lubrication company. We really had no option to do this as Nissan simply wont supply their production R35 transmission oil to Australia. So rather than ID and replace the existing fluid we figured that testing the performance of the Nissan product and then bettering it would be the go. Its taken some time and some money to do this, so its no game of chance, rather a development process.

When it comes to oils I am one of the biggest sceptics there is, companies claiming this and that, power improvements etc. etc. Most of it is rubbish designed to sell Product A over Product B. Nissan knew exactly what they were doing when they joined forces with the oil company that make their R35 Transmission oil. They know it is extremely heat affected (hence the change intervals) and sacrifices pure lubrication quality in an all out attempt to make their gearbox as ratchet precise as possible as cheaply as possible. They have indeed succeeded in every aspect of their criteria. Production oil supply is very price driven with something like the R35 Transmission oil costing - really - no more than around $20/quart to replicate. Why do that though when for $60/quart we can make something last 8 -10 times longer (we are expecting to see coventional accepted 1800 mile wear at 18000 miles) and protect the metallurgy of the gearset against shock loading at the same time?

Martin,

Awesome. Thanks for these very detailed posts and your work in bettering the GT-R Gear Oil. Can you hazard a guess as to who BorgWarner contracts for their Gear Oil? Pentosin?

If some of us entrepreneur were wanting to license your 'blend' to be mixed/sold right in North America, would you be adverse to that? and would you be willing to share some of that information?

Please PM me if you wish to take this offline, but I would be willing to get a batch of this mixed locally here (having access to friends in the petrochemical world helps!) with your consent/licensing/approval.

Cheers

[tyndago]

I looked at the GT-R fluid a while ago. I didn't go though all the hassle of getting it analyzed, but I noticed it was a thin green oil of a viscosity that seemed like an ATF.

In the Skyline GT-R trannys (R32/R33), I use Redline Shockproof Heavy which works out for me fairly well. It protects, drains some power, but not snapping 3rd gear off with every spirited shift into 3rd is nice. You can still shear gears with Shockproof Heavy , but it gives me a warm fuzzy.

Once we get into the transmission and clutch control more, there might be some benefits of running a thicker gearoil in the box.

GR6 Transmission - How to fix it.

[losgatosGTR]

Keep up the good work Martin. I would love to try the new transmission oil sometime.

[KingAbarth]

There is no secret to the type of fluid we are using. Its a product - WR35TM - we had specifically blended for us via a specialist lubrication company. We really had no option to do this as Nissan simply wont supply their production R35 transmission oil to Australia. So rather than ID and replace the existing fluid we figured that testing the performance of the Nissan product and then bettering it would be the go. Its taken some time and some money to do this, so its no game of chance, rather a development process.

When it comes to oils I am one of the biggest sceptics there is, companies claiming this and that, power improvements etc. etc. Most of it is rubbish designed to sell Product A over Product B. Nissan knew exactly what they were doing when they joined forces with the oil company that make their R35 Transmission oil. They know it is extremely heat affected (hence the change intervals) and sacrifices pure lubrication quality in an all out attempt to make their gearbox as ratchet precise as possible as cheaply as possible. They have indeed succeeded in every aspect of their criteria. Production oil supply is very price driven with something like the R35 Transmission oil costing - really - no more than around $20/quart to replicate. Why do that though when for $60/quart we can make something last 8 -10 times longer (we are expecting to see coventional accepted 1800 mile wear at 18000 miles) and protect the metallurgy of the gearset against shock loading at the same time?

PM me your number and/or email..

i want to make my order!!

[flyfast]

Great information and very interesting!. the "burnt" tranny oil smell after 1800K? Not good. 200 micron particles? may as well be boulder size metal chunks flowing around in there. 200!!!!